Space flight

[Non Sequitur]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/15/obama.space/index.html

I actually was not quite sure where to put this thread, so I used a news story from today just to put it here. I am also interested in what people think of the plan President Obama has put forth, but I am really interested in a discussion about Space Exploration in general. I have a couple opinions

1. SPACE EXPLORATION IS AWESOME! (i'm a sci-fi nerd)
2. Practically, I understand the arguments that it costs lots of money in a down economy, but the space program has historically been one of many sources for much technological advancement.
3. On a less practical level, I think human space exploration is a great "inspiration" factor for people (I know it's cheesy, but it's awesome!). Also, putting a person on mars, for example, would be a great way for America to demonstrate it's technological might without bombing the living daylights out of some poor country (a motive which i think the current administration would like).

So what do you think? Is manned space flight a joke? is it beneficial anymore? was it just a Cold War Ploy or is it still really cool :D

[andrewl]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/15/obama.space/index.html

I actually was not quite sure where to put this thread, so I used a news story from today just to put it here. I am also interested in what people think of the plan President Obama has put forth, but I am really interested in a discussion about Space Exploration in general. I have a couple opinions

1. SPACE EXPLORATION IS AWESOME! (i'm a sci-fi nerd)
2. Practically, I understand the arguments that it costs lots of money in a down economy, but the space program has historically been one of many sources for much technological advancement.
3. On a less practical level, I think human space exploration is a great "inspiration" factor for people (I know it's cheesy, but it's awesome!). Also, putting a person on mars, for example, would be a great way for America to demonstrate it's technological might without bombing the living daylights out of some poor country (a motive which i think the current administration would like).

So what do you think? Is manned space flight a joke? is it beneficial anymore? was it just a Cold War Ploy or is it still really cool :D


Our long term survival absolutely depends on it. Even more importantly, our history as a species requires that we "boldly go where no man has gone before". It would be an injustice not to explore space.

My only hope is that we also end the insanity on earth before we spread it to other parts of the universe. Otherwise it is perhaps a blessing to other civilizations that we don't make it.

Andrew

[Michael]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/15/obama.space/index.html

I actually was not quite sure where to put this thread, so I used a news story from today just to put it here. I am also interested in what people think of the plan President Obama has put forth, but I am really interested in a discussion about Space Exploration in general. I have a couple opinions
It is fine right here since it is "news". Alternatively, it could go in either "Science" or "US Politics". I'd be inclined to the latter since that's what this looks like to me. :D


1. SPACE EXPLORATION IS AWESOME! (i'm a sci-fi nerd)
Yes, space exploration is indeed awesome.

But why should we need humans for that? Humans seem to be the big stumbling block here as they drive up the costs astronomically and reduce the efficiency and effectiveness by several orders of magnitude.


2. Practically, I understand the arguments that it costs lots of money in a down economy, but the space program has historically been one of many sources for much technological advancement.
Sure. US has a long history of subsidizing private corporate R&D through DoD and NASA. That seems to be the primary purpose of these enterprises.

That being said, this is an EXTREMELY inefficient and wasteful method of socialist industrial policy.

If one seeks to subsidize private corporate profits, there are many more efficient ways to do so than channeling the money through DoD or NASA. One might argue that this method is probably the LEAST efficient method of industrial subsidy possible.

But it sure enriches the richest Americans, so that's where the policy comes from and why it is still there, growing ever larger every year.


3. On a less practical level, I think human space exploration is a great "inspiration" factor for people (I know it's cheesy, but it's awesome!). Also, putting a person on mars, for example, would be a great way for America to demonstrate it's technological might without bombing the living daylights out of some poor country (a motive which i think the current administration would like).
Sure, if it was an 'either/or' proposition, I'll take Mars.

But I consider US "inspiration" to be rather dangerous for world peace and world freedom. US success with the Moon program was followed by one of the ugliest decades in all of history for US imperialism, covert wars and financing/training of rightwing 'death squads' in Central America - issues that some nations are still trying to recover from.

In other words, how many murders are justified by moon rocks?

So what do you think? Is manned space flight a joke? is it beneficial anymore? was it just a Cold War Ploy or is it still really cool :D
Cold War ploy or rather, I'd say 100% domestic politics.

Bottom line is that if the US can't afford universal healthcare for its citizens, it certainly cannot afford to play this kind of massive subsidy game for rich people.

If the US actually was meeting its domestic needs, then by all means, throw your surplus at something impressive - but the US does not have a surplus at all and, on the contrary, is facing years of declining standards of living due to over-ambitious spending in the DoD and private corporate subsidies in the first place!

I might add that one can argue that from an actuarial standpoint, the US still hasn't actually paid for the Apollo program yet - it was financed with public debt that is still stacked up on the books, weighing down the US economy.

Sorry to be so negative! :D

[Americano]

I don't consider your opinions negative. The US general public is in the process of paying an exorbitant price for accepting self-serving leadership who benefited special interests and ignored everything among the citizenry but intercity riots. Given that level of apathy by those citizens, they're going to become very uncomfortable over the next decade. We Americans need that seawater to oil formula.

[Greendruid]

I actually agree quite closely with Non-sequitur's original points. The economies of nations that previously went where no one had gone before, or at least where no white one had gone before, were never stable and haven't been since. I suppose there is a difference in that the interests that funded Columbus, Drake and Magellan were private and/or royal interests in entirely different times governmentally-speaking.

In the same way, human beings must explore regardless of the costs. It is what we are. It is the reason our ancestors left Africa with the mass migrations of other mammals 1.8 million years ago. It is the reason we live on every continent on the planet. It is the reason we went to the moon and the reason we will go farther. We are the exploring ape.

That being said, I couldn't agree more with Michael that our fragile human forms are no match for the wilds of space and we'd be better off trying to come up with technology that would allow near light speed travel to distant worlds rather than working on ways to protect our bodies from the rigours of space travel. I still want to see us travel in space without the effects of 0 gravity though!

[Michael]

I'd much rather see an 'Apollo-scale' plan to address American's energy problem.

Like setting a goal of 50% renewable energy in America by 2020. That would take some serious technology advancements and investments.

[Americano]

I'd much rather see an 'Apollo-scale' plan to address American's energy problem.

Like setting a goal of 50% renewable energy in America by 2020. That would take some serious technology advancements and investments.

Difficult when over 50% of annual tax revenue and debt proceeds are devoted to a somewhat useless war machine that obsoletes itself on a planned basis. Unless an Apollo or Manhattan Project scale plan for renewable energy is implemented using DOD funds the US will continue its economic decline.