Bag Taxes

[Michael]

Apparently Washington DC just adopted a $0.05 tax on plastic shopping bags.

I'm curious if other jurisdictions are doing the same? This particular formula looks like trouble since it is actually a tax that has to be paid to the government. I think that's stupid and just more bureaucratic bullshit to annoy people. And since the money goes to the government, that gives the people legitimate reason to gripe (since they already pay lots of money to the government, this just seems like a petty nusiance).

Here in Ontario, we have a mandatory $0.05 fee on plastic shopping bags. The fees go to the retailer. As it is, it can be a slight windfall for the retailer (since the cost of the bags is much less than the fee), but no one seems to care. No paperwork or government bureaucrats required.

Seems like this private market option achieves the same goal without creating more bureaucracy and without the government sucking pennies from children.

Any thoughts on this? What's the scene in your locality?

[Americano]

In my locale one has to request paper bags, which are of such inferior quality filling one more than a quarter full of say canned goods is a guarantee it will split open. No plastic bag taxes or fees being proposed.

I believe voters in Washington State just rejected such a tax, which normally means advocates will approach the issue on county levels.

[Greendruid]

I don't know the origin or destination of the fees but in Nova Scotia all grocery store retailers charge a 5¢/bag fee on plastic bags and ask you if you require them now if you don't present your own fabric bags up front. There is no paper option. I think the amount should be raised to $1/bag to get peoples' attention and have the difference in the price of the bags go to environmental remediation efforts in dealing with our growing problem of garbage in general. The plastic bags are, in my opinion, a pitiful excuse for a container in the first place. They are weak, small and free advertising for the stores. Our own cotton bags are much sturdier, larger and free advertising for our farm or any political message we feel the need to promote :D

[Michael]

I don't know the origin or destination of the fees but in Nova Scotia all grocery store retailers charge a 5¢/bag fee on plastic bags and ask you if you require them now if you don't present your own fabric bags up front. There is no paper option. I think the amount should be raised to $1/bag to get peoples' attention and have the difference in the price of the bags go to environmental remediation efforts in dealing with our growing problem of garbage in general. The plastic bags are, in my opinion, a pitiful excuse for a container in the first place. They are weak, small and free advertising for the stores. Our own cotton bags are much sturdier, larger and free advertising for our farm or any political message we feel the need to promote :D

Sounds like Nova Scotia has the same law as Ontario.

And if you read up on this issue, $1 is complete overkill. You'd be amazed to see how successfull the $0.05 fee has been. As a general rule, it eliminates 50% of these shopping bags in any jurisdiction that does this.

I doubt if a $1 fee would produce a greater effect, but a $1 fee would certainly stir up lots of political trouble. As it is, I'm quite impressed with this policy application - it works and its cheap. That's good policy.

[andrewl]

Apparently Washington DC just adopted a $0.05 tax on plastic shopping bags.

I'm curious if other jurisdictions are doing the same? This particular formula looks like trouble since it is actually a tax that has to be paid to the government. I think that's stupid and just more bureaucratic bullshit to annoy people. And since the money goes to the government, that gives the people legitimate reason to gripe (since they already pay lots of money to the government, this just seems like a petty nusiance).

Here in Ontario, we have a mandatory $0.05 fee on plastic shopping bags. The fees go to the retailer. As it is, it can be a slight windfall for the retailer (since the cost of the bags is much less than the fee), but no one seems to care. No paperwork or government bureaucrats required.

Seems like this private market option achieves the same goal without creating more bureaucracy and without the government sucking pennies from children.

Any thoughts on this? What's the scene in your locality?

Locally safeway still gives plastic for free, while superstore and home depot charge 5 cents.

There is no tax in alberta. Although i gotta say that the canvas shopping bags are starting to really take off (in edmonton at least). 1$ a piece and they last forever (safeway exchanges any bags for free that have tears or broken straps).

The canvas bags are larger and fit more groceries and they can be used for toting other stuff as well.

But, it is recommended to get your meat in disposable plastic as bacteria can build up in the canvas bags. Every few months we wash them in bleach and hang'em to dry.

My personal thoughts are to ban them outright as china has done.

Andrew

[Zarquon]

My personal thoughts are to ban them outright as china has done.

Andrew
And how well enforced do you think that ban is?
and will it work in Canada? or especially in the US (where it would be struck down by this obnoxiously corporatist supreme court for sure, and for once I'd agree)?

[andrewl]

And how well enforced do you think that ban is?

According to this article it had saved ~1.6m tonnes of oil, as of may 2009.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/22/china-plastic-bags-ban-success

Im not sure how else you can measure the success of such a ban other than the fact that there is less plastic polluting the worlds ecosystems.

and will it work in Canada? or especially in the US (where it would be struck down by this obnoxiously corporatist supreme court for sure, and for once I'd agree)?

I think it would have more success in Canada than in the US that's for sure. Im quite certain americans would get quite angry about it - it would be an affront to their freedom and all thing they hold sacred and dear.

Andrew

[The Drunk Girl]

There is a grocery store named Aldi's that "encourages" customers to bring their own bags when shopping there.

You'll find ALDI shopping carts hooked together right outside the door. As you approach the store, just insert a quarter to release a cart. When you’re finished shopping, reconnect the chain and get your quarter back. This expense-saving tradition (no rolling carts to chase and no damaged cars!) has become a legendary part of the ALDI culture.


And as long as you're bringing a quarter, bag even more savings at ALDI by bringing some bags from home. To help bring you incredible value every day, we don't hire baggers or bury the cost of free grocery bags in our prices. Instead, we encourage you to bring your own. For your convenience, we do sell heavy-weight paper grocery bags at every checkout for 5¢. If you prefer, we have big, heavy-duty plastic shopping bags with handles (much bigger and heavier than supermarket plastic bags) for 10¢. Insulated bags for your frozen food items are just 99¢. And the empty cardboard cartons you'll find throughout the store are yours for the taking—especially convenient if you're buying canned goods or other heavy products!

Source (http://www.aldifoods.com/us/html/company/shopping_smarter_3181_ENU_HTML.htm)

I had shopped there once or twice before in my hometown and forgot a quarter, but the experience wasn't bad. I believe we wound up just using the empty cardboard boxes to "bag" our groceries. In my hometown, I have never heard of anyone complain about the system that they run and it does help to cut down on plastic bag use.

Off topic, but I have so many WalMart plastic bags that they take up almost half of the space under our sink! I use the bags for our bathroom trashcans, but that is about it. I always felt bad going to WM, coming home with all those bags, and then just throwing them all away.

[Americano]

There is a grocery store named Aldi's that "encourages" customers to bring their own bags when shopping there.


Source (http://www.aldifoods.com/us/html/company/shopping_smarter_3181_ENU_HTML.htm)

I had shopped there once or twice before in my hometown and forgot a quarter, but the experience wasn't bad. I believe we wound up just using the empty cardboard boxes to "bag" our groceries. In my hometown, I have never heard of anyone complain about the system that they run and it does help to cut down on plastic bag use.

Off topic, but I have so many WalMart plastic bags that they take up almost half of the space under our sink! I use the bags for our bathroom trashcans, but that is about it. I always felt bad going to WM, coming home with all those bags, and then just throwing them all away.

Get a couple of indoor cats and your plastic bag accumulation makes perfect litter box cleaning depositories.

[Michael]

Off topic, but I have so many WalMart plastic bags that they take up almost half of the space under our sink! I use the bags for our bathroom trashcans, but that is about it. I always felt bad going to WM, coming home with all those bags, and then just throwing them all away.
This is what the $0.05 fee is meant to eliminate.

Personally, I like getting those grocery bags as I re-use them as garbage bags and never have more than a few laying around.

And as far as I'm concerned, it was never the grocery store that was the main culprit. I'd say those little variety stores are where the real problem was and where the problem is mostly eliminated. They used to put everything into plastic bags and if you stand outside the store you will see people immediately lift their soda-pop bottle out of the bag to drink it. The plastic bag just blows away in the wind...

[Donkey]

There is a grocery store named Aldi's that "encourages" customers to bring their own bags when shopping there.


Source (http://www.aldifoods.com/us/html/company/shopping_smarter_3181_ENU_HTML.htm)

I had shopped there once or twice before in my hometown and forgot a quarter, but the experience wasn't bad. I believe we wound up just using the empty cardboard boxes to "bag" our groceries. In my hometown, I have never heard of anyone complain about the system that they run and it does help to cut down on plastic bag use.

Off topic, but I have so many WalMart plastic bags that they take up almost half of the space under our sink! I use the bags for our bathroom trashcans, but that is about it. I always felt bad going to WM, coming home with all those bags, and then just throwing them all away.
Aldi is brilliant in the ways that they save money. For one thing, they have a couple of exclusive generic suppliers (Milleville cereal, for instance). Also, they don't have to stock anything: they just stack the cardboard boxes out on the floor, and the customers clear them off to put their groceries in. Win win.

I really like Aldi's system, and the fact that it is dirt dirt dirt cheap is convenient.
Get a couple of indoor cats and your plastic bag accumulation makes perfect litter box cleaning depositories.
We usually take our reusable bags to the grocery store, but when we forget, it's not hard to find a use for the plastic now and then. It comes in really handy for recycling. To put recycling on the curb it has to be in a semi-transparent bag, so you can either buy the way expensive clear-blue recycling bags, or throw them in a "free" plastic grocery bag.

[Greendruid]

In a stunningly typical move, Nova Scotia made a step backward by allowing the main Loblaw's chain grocery here (Atlantic Superstore) just sort of give up on the bag tax. Local competitor Sobey's never enacted a bag tax and Atlantic Superstore complained that this cost them competition. A sad day for the chain groceries. One step forward ...

[Michael]

In a stunningly typical move, Nova Scotia made a step backward by allowing the main Loblaw's chain grocery here (Atlantic Superstore) just sort of give up on the bag tax. Local competitor Sobey's never enacted a bag tax and Atlantic Superstore complained that this cost them competition. A sad day for the chain groceries. One step forward ...

Yes, truly pathetic. We're talking about adding roughly $0.10 to the average grocery store visit (which is a tiny fraction of 1% of the average grocery store purchase). How that can translate into a competitive advantage strikes me as very petty indeed when that kind of sum is routinely ignored as inconsequential. Heck, I can't be bothered to pickup pennies, nickels or dimes if I drop one. It just isn't worth the effort. The thought of changing grocery stores to save ten cents per visit strikes me as absurd in the extreme.

Sobey's and Loblaws both charge $0.05 per bag in Ontario - as does every variety store. It is the law here.

But then again, some people are idiots. I've seen people in grocery stores use those produce bags for every single item they buy (including canned goods or boxed cereal, etc) and then put all those individually bagged items into plastic shopping bags and then put all the shopping bags into a cardboard box.

[The Drunk Girl]

Get a couple of indoor cats and your plastic bag accumulation makes perfect litter box cleaning depositories.

I think you meant to say, "purrfect" (yes, I know bad joke)

We're not allowed pets here, but the strays have made a nice home under our deck, since ours is the only one that is high enough for them to get under. Damn things have their little inbred kittens under there and piss and shit there, too. Sometimes at night the little fuckers scare me half to death when they start growling at one another.

(yeah I'm pretty pissed at the strays)

[Americano]

I think you meant to say, "purrfect" (yes, I know bad joke)

We're not allowed pets here, but the strays have made a nice home under our deck, since ours is the only one that is high enough for them to get under. Damn things have their little inbred kittens under there and piss and shit there, too. Sometimes at night the little fuckers scare me half to death when they start growling at one another.

(yeah I'm pretty pissed at the strays)

Feral cats are a tragedy perpetuated by humans. Not unlike plastic bags.

[Michael]

This is totally bizarre.

Five cent bag fees were introduced here last year and I've never heard a word about the topic. No articles in the newspaper, no letters-to-the-editor, no comments from co-workers, nothing. Just silence. Some pay the fee for bags, others supply their own. Many people now carry canvas shopping bags.

Either way, this isn't an issue that anyone is talking about up here at all.

And then there is this...

How Far Would You Go for 5 Cents?

Charging a nickel for every bag at the grocery store has created ‘a behavioral economist’s dream.’

Washington is nearly a month into an intriguing social experiment, one that — to judge by local reaction — is having a far greater impact on individual lives than any major policy shifts in health care, job creation or banking regulation.

Thousands of people have altered long-held behavior overnight. Businesses are operating differently. The way people eat, shop and interact with each other has changed. And hundreds have been moved to fiery message-board debates about the proper role of government and at what point it’s gone too far.

The catalyst: Residents of the district now have to pay 5 cents per bag — paper or plastic — at the grocery store.

* * *

In the strangest cases, some residents are driving to Virginia to avoid the bag tax — even though the higher Virginia sales tax more than wipes out any 5-cent savings.
Source (http://www.miller-mccune.com/politics/how-far-would-you-go-for-5-cents-7641/)

Unbelievable. Really, don't people have better things to get all worked up over?

And referendums? Holy crap. This is nuts. These people are making mountains out of molehills. :rolleyes: